Spirits are separate entities. and Magick is not psychology, though it inevitably has some psychological effects.
If anyone ever tries to convince you that the point of magick is to project psychological aspects of yourself into a triangle, then you need to ask yourself why the hell you would need to spend 10+ years perfecting and honing your skills in talking to something that is, essentially a sub-personality, atavistic as it might be.
A good psychologist/therapist/psychiatrist will fix you in roughly 2 years.
Not American, "lets make this person dependable" shrinks but people who are actually Doctors for the soul. Cognitive behaviour therapy is the most effective for the big issues like addiction, behaviours life altering deppression, anxiety and stuff, Assagili for psychosynthesis >>>f actually finding your inner demons and personality issues. etc.
Does going to a therapist allows you to cause visible/fysical manifestations (self induced hallucinations, what have you) to occur with your inner selves? No.
Does working with Demons and binding them make you integrate and overcome the repressed memory from your childhood of having a chicken pox spot on your genitals which memory then developed into insecurity issues in your adult life? No.
Will experiencing altered states of mind, visions sent by angels or the fear you feel the first time you succees in an actual visibe manifestation cause psychological changes? Yes, but so would having sex in public.
Separate that which has been entangled and choose the right path for magickal skill or self-help, respectively.
Magician, heal thyself, but with the right tools.
9 juli 2010
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I agree that spirits and demons are real and exists outside of yourself. But IMHO the subjective and the objective perspective on this isn't necessarily mutually exclusive.
SvaraRaderaWhile I agree with your view we must on the other hand not forget that whatever is in the macrocosm also is reflected in the microcosm.
Thus we host a legion of demons (in) ourselves, that constitutes part of ourselves. In a psychological perspective these demons feed our complexes, or constitutes parts of them (but they also constitute energetic and unbalanced aggregations of the Sphere of Sensation).
Thus I'm myself convinced that traditional evocation methods works fine in also projecting out these repressed complexes and unbalanced energies of the Sphere of Sensation into the triangle.
That being said, what should optimally occur in evocation is also the summoning of the macrocosmic equivalent. There is a perfectly good reason why people in the middle ages (and still in some catholic countries) thought that real and outside demons instigated or tempted them to commit sin. Real and objective demons are attracted and feed upon the unbalanced emotions and behavior of humans as they love these energies being radiated from our Sphere (it's like they spot our heat signature with thermal sights); there is a rapport between the corresponding macrocosmic and microcosmic Qlippoth.
One could argue that natural man stands in greater union with the "devil" (meaning the realm of the Qlippoth) than he does with God (the realm of the divine).
Thus both your own subjective demon as well as the objective demon should optimally merge in the Triangle. In this way you both gain consciousness of and integrate the demon of your own personality, placing under the Will of your Genius, and at the same time raise the spark of that macrocosmic Qlippa back to its divine origin.
This also occurs, IMHO, in ordinary invocations as well. When we invoke a Force, say a Element or Planet, we both activate that archetypal part of ourselves in our Sphere of Sensation, and at the same time invoke the macrocosmic equivalent into our Sphere. In this way we in stages merge our own microcosmic Sphere with the macrocosmic ditto. Theurgy is about union, not only between the "spiritual" side of yourself with your "material", but also between the microcosm (inner) and the macrocosm (outer).
I have the same view on evocation as I have with invocation, the theurgic perspective. If we are to unite ourselves with the macrocosm we also must prepare ourselves to merge with the ugly aspects as well.
Through evocation we place these unbalanced forces under divine dominion, being part of the Tikkun ha-Olam (the restoration of the world). Restoring the world we also restore ourselves, and vice versa.
Just my "two" cents.
In Licht, Leben und Liebe,
S:.R:.
Sure, but that is an extremely late and very Golden Dawn approach to these things.
SvaraRaderaLets not forget that not every demon is in any way linked with the practitioners complexes.
In the end all is within, as man=god=everything. But in reality and practicality that is not the case all the time.
When working with the RR et AC and especially Griffin's interpretation of that material, the purpose of working with the Klipphot and demonic forces is indeed to accomplish what you describe above.
However the larger corpus and living traditions on work with outer spirits, including demons, proves and shows that they are objective entities.
Allthough certain spirits in certain grimoires can be assigned psychological complexes in the same way as we ascribe certain psychological and archetypical things to planetary and zodiacal forces there is the objective force when real magick happens not just when psychological changes happen to happen as a result of the force being reflected into the sphere.
I have worked with and met Demonic entities and other spirits enough to know when I am performing a purifying theurgical ritual that I am dealing with, say, my perverted sexlife under the auspice of the venusian archdemon, OR when I am meeting with/working with an entity with an absolute objective reality.
Just because certain hotter entities can actually help removing energy from the lower palaces and free up the inner heat the same way as the cooler entities can assist us integrating the persona and solve psychological problems doesn't mean there is all to that entity.
It is all outside your head. If you know what you are doing there may be a psychological affect following the outer work, but then its less time consuming and more relevant to work with psychosynthesis and other psychological tools.
The OPTIMUM in ALL forms of work is actually to summon as much of the macrocosm and project as little of yourself as possible, that is the only way to transcend expectations and get in touch with the real force the contact with which will bring about transformation, in the same way as having a loaded shotgun aimed at your testicles will bring about psychological changes.
And, I forgot to add, there are demons you can't summon because someone else has already bound them in hell or they have been reintegrated.
SvaraRaderaI am also not sure if I agree with you regarding the aim of the work.
There is more to theurgy then performing the great work, namely to master and transcend forces, to unity mysticism and be invisible for the forces yet be their master.
However discussing these things in detail is not really a "comments" on a blog place to do so I shall bow out.
Good thoughts and formulations my dear Frater. And I agree with you that demons have a objective existence; I didn't state that demons were all in the head. Like you I don't agree with Crowley or DuQuette on this particular topic.
SvaraRaderaWhat I did say however is that there also exists microcosmic equivalents of these objective forces, angelic as well as demonic. This is especially the case when working with the archetypal forces of the Elements, Planets, Zodiac (the 72 quinants) and Sephiroth. As you know, there are both angelic and qlippotic (demonic) entities attached to these.
I'm sure you are correct that there are demons that not in any way have equivalents or is in rapport with the microcosm. I don't have enough experience of this kind of work to say state anything contrary.
Regarding Griffin's view on evocation and the G.D., well that has been heavily influenced, as you know, by the opinions of Israel Regardie. And yes, sure, the psychological perspective is very recent. But this doesn't disqualify it. Being trained in the psychodynamic / psychoanalytic school myself, I of course find it particularly interesting. I find Sigmund Freud's theories quite Lurianic as to their nature.
But if someone would dare to state that this is all that there is to evocation or the qlippoth, that surely is a sign of ignorance and lack of real experience, in the same way that C.G. Jung interpreted Alchemical symbolism as the projections of the archetypes (which is extremely reductionary, even though it's interesting as well).
My own position in this is somewhere in the middle between yourself and Mr. Griffin's book (The Ritual Magic Manual); I'm sitting on the fence and saying that you are both correct. If one believes in only one of these perspectives, I would dare to say that it represents a half truth, although I would also say that the subjective position is the most delusional of them. I know however that Mr. Griffin believes in the objective existence of the demons as well.
I also like what you said regarding invoking the macrocosm as much as possible and projecting as little of yourself as you can, meaning that you should let the macrocosmic entity taking precedence. In this way your subjective (microcosmic) self aligns more to the objective (macrocosmic), resulting in a greater rapport or connection to the whole.
However, if you want to merge your microcosm with the macrocosm you have to open up yourself to it. In invocation this is easy as you simply open up your Sphere of Sensation and let these forces in. But in evocation, binding the demon to the Triangle of Art (which is outside of your Sphere by the very definition) you have to meet the objective force half way, as it were, sending your own demon into the triangle as well.
Thank you for this though provoking discussion brother!
In Licht, Leben und Liebe
S:.R:.
Oh my God! I am very very satisfied on having listened to a magician who does not create in dumb psychological ideas and who defends the tradition. I do not know many like you.
SvaraRaderaI congratulate you on your work and wish you all the successes.
@Peregrino
SvaraRaderaThank you